Mid-Week Live Coaching: Lee
In this mid-week live coaching, Adam Quiney sits with Lee Povey, an elite cycling coach, emotional performance coach and CEO of Maximize Your Potential, to access Lee’s own sadness, how he copes with it, and how to find the “right” coaching clients. Lee says that oftentimes, he feels frustrated and uncomfortable when he doesn’t know the answers. As a coach himself, Lee struggles with connecting with his clients when they are feeling stuck and wanting to make them feel unstuck. Adam talks with him to make him realize his full potential and get himself out there to become the coach he wants himself to be.
Listen to the Episode Here:
Mid-Week Live Coaching: Lee
On this week’s mid-week episode, tune in as Adam live coaches Lee Povey around accessing his own sadness, leaving the past behind, how to find the “right” coaching clients, and finding his real niche.
This is a coaching episode. I will be talking with Lee Povey, elite cycling and an emotional performance coach. I thought it was a cool idea because emotions are such an essential aspect of our being and leadership. Most conventional leadership is committed to this idea of stuffing, suppressing or operating over top of your emotions. To be clear, the path is not wallowing in them but it’s not stuffing, suppressing and denying that they have an existence either. This is a delightful conversation. Lee is genuinely fun.
There are a few things that I will point you to notice throughout this conversation. The first one is noticing Lee’s brilliance and how safe it is for him. You’ll probably get a sense of this. This is a man who’s done a lot of thinking, a lot of awareness and who can see a lot of stuff. The whole time spent up there in the conceptual and the realm of the thinking and stuff is not going to break a lot of new ground for him. The second thing is you’ll catch me a couple of times interrupting him and bringing him back to the present and the question that I asked.
When we’re leading or coaching someone and we’re in the realm of the new, the unknown, the not yet discovered and the realm of that, which is uncomfortable, those two things tend to show up in tandem. Oftentimes, we’ll ask a question and the person will explain why that’s not the case and then give you a different answer. It’s like, “Explain here’s why it’s not what you asked.” You’ll see me catch Lee a couple of times and invite him to choose something different than going back into the realm of what he already knows.
The third thing that is worth noticing is having Lee practice something at the moment. This is often something I see missed a great deal in most personal development and helping professions, which is having the person practice the thing they say they want at the moment. The easiest way you can see this is when people go to a coach, a leader or a counselor and they’re like, “I want more presence.” There’s then this long conversation about how they could create more presence and then they go into their life and they’re like, “I’m trying to do more presence.”
Have them practice creating more presence so that you can both notice which shows up and gets in the way of your presence. How are you sabotaging the presence that is always available for us as humans? Notice that children don’t have a lack of presence because they have not yet been trained out of it. There are a few times where we’ll start to get into something. Lee will start to get present and then he jumps out and gets into his head, which allows him to leave the present moment, being with what is uncomfortable for him to be with. Those are three things you can look for. That is where we’re going to leave you and take you to our conversation. I hope you enjoy this. If you are reading this and you’re like, “I would love to be a guest on this show. That sounds super cool,” you can send an email to GetLit@AdamQuiney.com. Thanks for reading. We’ll see you next episode.
Lee, can you tell us how did we meet? I remember it somehow but I can’t remember exactly how.
It’s through Toku. We had one week of the mastermind course to go.
This is when it all gets piled in. How did we meet through Toku? Was it you followed something he had shared of mine or was it something I shared of his? Do you remember?
I can’t remember. I watched something, something stood out and I messaged you?
How’s your day going as a starting point?
Good. I had accountability. I did the first client of the day. Now, you sexy bastard, I am all yours.
How is accountability for you? What’s your relationship to that?
I’m super accountable to myself at least. Letting people down or the thought of letting people down is massive to me.
Once you say you’re going to do something, you’re reliable for it. I tend to be the same way. Integrity is often one of the things people reflect on me. They’re like, “There’s a lot of integrity.” Like a lot of people with some strong suit and integrity, I can get rigid with that. Giving my word, under no circumstances would I ever not do it. To deal with that led me to play a small game in life where I could make sure that I only ever gave my word to stuff I could achieve or not giving my word to very much. It’s interesting to see myself in that. I practice giving my word hope and putting myself out there a lot more. For me, the opportunity is often to clean up the mess to honor my word. I’m like, “I’m not going to be able to do that thing. What do I need to do to clean up?”
I’ve been practicing that too. For me, giving my word is a commitment that’s made me not look after myself enough. Giving too much of myself or not taking a break, “I should do it on the holidays.” I’m committed to showing up for training athletes in the past at a certain time. I’m going to be there every week. It’s a commitment of like, “If I’m not there every week, what are they going to do?” It’s rubbish because they look after themselves.
I would imagine amazing quality when it comes to high-level athleticism, which is part of your background. There’s plenty of times where whatever we’re up to in our life, we don’t feel like doing it. That ability to choose into it, regardless of how I feel, gives you a place to choose other than your feelings at the moment.
If you’re going to work with high-level athletes, you’ve got to be as committed as they are. If you’re going to be the coach, you’ve got to stand up and say, “I’m here with you,” rather than, “Do as I say.” It’s a team relationship. In my experience, some sports coaches miss that part of it. They think they’re there to tell the athletes what to do rather than they’re there to model what commitment is.
It’s easier to tell people what to do than to model something.
We’ll probably come to that.
It’s a good segue. Coming on, you weren’t exactly sure where we would go and that’s fine. We can start there. I want to check in on what’s life for you in terms of where might we go during this conversation.
I took some notes as you were doing your intro. I’m grateful to Toku and the work I’ve been doing with him. I’m part of the Samurai Coaching Dojo. That was what got me into working with Toku. I did one of them and I liked it. One of the most impactful bits of feedback I’ve had so far was from Matt Thieleman , who fucked me up for a week. I did the first Coaching Dojo and I got, “Give less advice.” I did the second Dojo and I got, “Give less advice.”
On the third one, I’m like, “I’m not giving any advice. It’s going to be questions and curiosity.” Matt comes in and he says, “I can see you’ve improved. Give less advice.” I was like, “You’re killing me.” It got me down. I gave him a shout-out. I emailed him afterward and I said, “That got me. I feel like a failure. I feel like I’m no good.” He sent me this lovely video message. It’s the first time I’d ever received a video message from somebody like that. It was about ten minutes and telling me how great I was and how I’m going to be great at this. I struggled with crying and I was by myself like, “I feel emotional now.”
I appreciate knowing your process through that. It’s like, “Give less advice.” That first time that feedback touched you, it was like, “There’s a thing to do.” The next time was like, “I got it but now I’m going to do it.” The third is where the wall broke, “I can’t keep being positive about this. It had an impact.” In terms of what it is for us to talk about, where does that lead us?
The notes I put down were the need to be clever holding me back, the dynamic between who I’ve learned to be and who I most want to be in, I’m feeling called to be and then the dichotomy between needing to be the smartest person in the room. I thought that would go with you. I know that’s your tagline. We can play with that. Having this deep desire to find mentors and teachers and then the ridiculousness of then trying to undermine them. I’m desperate. I didn’t have a good father role modeling. I didn’t have a good relationship with my dad. There’s always been a part of me that wants that male leadership and mentoring. Whenever I get into those spaces, not always now but in the past, I de facto become the leader, everybody treats me like the leader and I treat myself like I’m the leader.
Let me give you an example. I run men’s groups. I was blown away by how other guys in the group stepped in to support a guy in the group who was going through something. I was supporting him. We’re doing some work. We’re doing a bit of coaching and teaching. One by one, these other guys started to check in. One of the guys was like, “I want to give you a big hug.” The immediate impact that had on everybody in the room and then for me to step back and lean back in my chair and watch them support each other, I was feeling it.
What is it that you were feeling?
It’s empathy. I was feeling their emotions and desire to share, to step up and support each other. I was feeling what the guy was going through. It’s powerful for me, somebody who’s always been afraid of my sadness, to be able to feel that other person’s sadness and how that could touch the sadness inside of me. The difference between empathy and sympathy, I’d be the guy looking down and going, “I’m strong and I can support you.” I was like, “I feel what’s going on here.” There was no need for me to rescue or support. It’s like, “Let this play out.”
Where do we go from here?
It’s around my need to be seen, to be smart, letting go of that and being okay with being me at the moment. On a cognitive level, I understand this need for me to be smart. When I was little, I was rewarded for being smart and good at sports. That’s how I got noticed. Mom rewarded me for being smart. Dad rewarded me for being good at sports, in particular cycling. It’s not a surprise that I became an elite cycling coach. It’s being okay with me.
Is there a reason you want to let go of that?
It held me back. I’ve been watching this series with Sara, my wife, Ted Lasso. It’s a comedy series. He is an American football coach who is hired to coach a British soccer team. He knows nothing about the sport. He comes there. The joke on the first episode is that the press is interviewing him. He doesn’t know any of the rules, how many players are playing, and that it’s two halves against four quarters. He knows nothing. He doesn’t get embarrassed but they’re trying to embarrass him.
The lesson of the program is he’s a coach. He understands people. What he’s good at is being incredibly uplifting, positive and seeing the best in people. There’s a part of me that’s like that but then there’s this other part of me that wants to make me feel better, stronger, more than and it undermines these other parts. That’s why I talked about this dichotomy of these two parts of me. I understand the learning and coping behavior that created that part of me. I don’t want to fucking let go of it. I’m done with it. It doesn’t serve me as an adult.
Not at all.
I don’t think so.
How did it serve you?
It served me when I was a little kid. I got to be noticed by being clever. I got the strokes and responses that I wanted. When you’re an adult and have to prove to everybody you’re cleverer, it doesn’t get you such a good result.
If you were a practicing attorney, that would be an incredible skill where you’re like, “That person is stupid. This person right here in front of you is smart. Therefore, choose his argument,” for example. I can imagine places where it would be a real benefit. It’s interesting because you said that you want to let go of this, be uplifting and see people in their light.
That’s not entirely true. I want to offer the shadow and the good stuff that they can’t figure out themselves as a part of our work. I’m not afraid of that. It’s my relationship to where I stand in it. It’s like, “Is it about me or is it about them? Am I doing this to look clever? Am I doing this because this is the right service for the person I’m working with?” There’s a difference. I want to explore that difference and I want to lean into it more. I don’t want to make it less about me, needing to be smart and be seen and more about being of service. It’s the switch between me being smart and me being of service. It’s something I’ve been working on as part of being a coach, going from being an athlete yourself and being a selfish bugger and it’s all about me. You’re a coach and it’s not about you at all. It’s all about the athletes.
As an emotional performance coach, it’s the same thing. It’s not about me. It’s not my idea that matters. It’s allowing somebody to sit in their discomfort without me having to fix the problem for them. What I admire in people is somebody that supports others and allows them to be who they’re going to be and be the best version of themselves while holding them accountable. Also, holding the mirror up to them to show them their shit too but without having to do it in such a way that I’m showing you I’m cleverer than you to do it. I want you to feel like you’re coming to these answers yourself. I’m empowering you to come to these answers rather than I’m like, “Here’s the answer. I fixed it for you.”
That’s super clear. You want to be of service to people and then part of what’s in the way of that is this tendency to be like, “I need to be seen. I need to be related as smart,” whatever this thing that we’re talking about is.
It’s easy for me. Here’s the arrogant statement, I see stuff. As a cycling coach, I could walk into a velodrome and tell you everything that everybody was doing wrong and how they can be better in that velodrome. When I started telling people that, it did not get me friends. I have this power but it’s when you turn the power on and knowing what’s applicable, acceptable and healthy as opposed to, “I’m going to shine that on you and tell you all of your shit straight away.” You’re going to get immediately overwhelmed and go like, “What the fuck is going on here?”
Do you have a specific place where we could look at where this has been showing up, a particular example or something concrete beyond the abstract?
Let’s use the Coaching Dojo. Let‘s go back to what we first talked about. I’m on it and I find myself wanting to save people or give them the answer. I’m not going to mention names but we’re always working with a lovely person. They were talking about their trouble with managing tasks. I had the answer, I’m like, “This is what you need to do.” I was trying to be curious if they could get there themselves. I could feel this thing welling up inside of me, like, “I have to give you the answer.” That was the least powerful part of the three coaching sessions we did, by far. The most powerful part was when I was super curious. She was telling me about herself and truly sharing. I had no agenda. I didn’t have to fix it. I was curious. We did some powerful work. We were both in tears at one point.
What is that part of you when you’re with someone? It sounds like there’s a connection for you between needing to be seen, be smart, giving them that answer and what you’d rather do. It almost seems obvious but I want to have you connect those dots for me. What is the connection between those two things, you’re answering to someone and this thing you’ve talked about that gets in the way?
I don’t understand what you mean.
It’s okay because I asked the question in the most confusing way possible. You are doing this correctly. You said there’s this need to be seen and to be smart. The example you’ve brought is where you were coaching someone and trying to be curious and open but tried to give them an answer.
I wanted them to think, “Lee is smart. Lee has got the answer for me.”
What was going on internally at that time? You were like, “I don’t feel smart enough. I want to give them the answer so they know that I’m smart.”
I don’t think it’s I don’t feel smart enough, which is the stupid thing about it. I feel like an excitable little boy. It’s like, “I’ve got the answer. I need to share it.” I do notice that other times, it becomes competitive. If somebody else in a group has been smart, I want to feel like I can show that I can play at that level as well. I’ve spent most of my life being unbelievably competitive. That was my life. Learning how to let go of that and turn that off is a big part of this transition for me.
What was going on for you? You weren’t like, “I need to prove I’m smart.” That wasn’t the internal dialogue. What was going on for you as you’re sitting there, working with this person and y feeling like they have an answer?
There’s an impatience. I want them to get there faster. It’s like, “I can see this. It’s obvious why you’re not getting it.” Yet when I’m on this side of it, I need to have more empathy or I’d like to have more empathy because I know what it’s like to be on the other side of it when you’re being coached, not be able to see it and to be obvious to the other person. I can remember having therapy sessions with my therapist. I see his eyebrows go up and he’ll be like, “Hmm.” I’m like, “He’s got it. Why the fuck haven’t I got it yet?” I know this feeling to be on the other side.
What is that feeling for you?
What do you mean?
That feeling where you’re like, “They don’t have the answer.” It sounds like you’re feeling something in the space. They don’t have the answer and then there’s a need to alleviate whatever that feeling is. I’m curious, what is that feeling? Either that you feel or that you’re empathetically feeling over there.
It’s my feeling of impatience of like, “Let’s get this out. It’s going to be the magic. We’re going to have the answer.” I’ve got to show that I can do something.
Usually, impatience is a function of like, “Where we are is not right. There’s a place we’re meant to be and we’re not there yet.” Would you go along with that? Where ought you to be that is then triggering your impatience with that client in that conversation?
I want to say I shouldn’t be anywhere. Moving from this world where there are all these goals. It’s like, “I need to teach you to do a standing style on your bike so that you can leave the gate as fast as you possibly can, get up to your top speed and through the distance as fast as you can. There are steps we need to go through to get there.” You move into this coaching space and it’s like, “That’s not my job. As I see it, my job is to be curious about you that you make those leaps yourself. I’m empowering and enabling you to make those leaps.” There’s still this dichotomy between, “I want to do it for you.” I’m used to being like, “Here’s what we need to do. You need to move your arms here. You need to put your head here. You need to do this. This is what you’re going to do to achieve this task.” Now, it’s like, “I don’t know the answer for you.”
My right answer is not necessarily your right answer. That’s something that’s being reflected in me a lot. I can be the smartest guy in the room for myself but that doesn’t mean I’m the smartest guy in the room for you. What might resonate for me might not resonate for you. The thing I see as the answer for you might not be the right answer. You might come up with something and I’d be like, “That’s way better than what I’m thinking over here.” It doesn’t matter anyway because for you to take it on board, the chances are it’s going to be more successful if you’ve got to that conclusion than if I’ve told you.
For everyone reading, what I noticed is I asked Lee a question and he told me it’s not that and then gave me a long explanation for what it is other than the question I asked. I noticed that in all of that, he didn’t answer the question. Further, there’s a reason I’m asking this question, which is that Lee is telling me he is feeling impatient. There’s like this intellectual part of Lee that’s saying, “There’s no reason for me to feel impatient. There’s no place that they should be.” He’s given me a beautifully thought out, well-articulated answer for why he doesn’t need to feel impatient, which is all moot. The truth is that Lee feels impatient. As a coach in these conversations, we’re always listening to like, “Did the question get answered? What happened when I asked that question?” Now that I’ve said that, Lee, are you present to what I described?
I’m good at that. Toku has mentioned that I’m difficult to coach because I’m trying to coach myself. We’re talking and I’m thinking cognitively. I’m not stopping to be present at that moment with like, “What the fuck am I feeling?”
I’m the same way. I want to be responsible. I don’t want to be this oblivious boob. I’m always trying to be one step ahead. I’m going to offer you the same invitation my coach often offers me, which is to let go of that and be a client. The reason you might do that is I noticed that trying to be one step ahead of yourself denies you some of the available gifts. Would you be up to practice that even if you don’t get it perfect? Intellectually, there’s no right way for people to be but on an embodied level or in terms of your being, there fucking is. There’s somewhere and we know that because there’s this impatience. Where’s that impatience striving to get your client?
I’m not sure. Is it trying to get my client? Is it my desire to have an answer?
Where should your client be other than where they are when this is showing up?
I’d like them to be able to see what I see.
How come? Where would they be if they could see what you see?
Unstuck. I feel like there’s the point where they’re stuck and you’re like, “You’re nearly there. Go on.”
Where the client is, is stuck. Where they ought to be is unstuck. It’s beautiful, Lee.
I don’t know which way you want to call it.
Which way do you want to call it?
The answer to my question is?
Let’s go with unstuck because it feels like, usually, they’re in a loop that’s going around like I am. You want to get them to think a part of that loop.
One thing I would reflect on to you is I felt you leaned back. It felt like you dropped a little bit down into your body and out of your head. Your answer had way fewer words in it, unstuck. The client is stuck and there’s this driving need to have them unstuck that occurs like impatience. It might be involved in having the right answer. What is your own experience of being stuck?
I don’t like it.
Can you say a little bit more?
I fucking hate not knowing the answers to stuff. I’m not used to it and it feels uncomfortable.
I don’t like being frustrated.
I’m taking that to mean you feel frustrated when you’re there.
When I can’t figure something out, I feel frustrated. Let’s use the example that’s frustrating me at the moment. I carry a lot of stuff in my head. I want to set up better systems to not carry a lot of stuff in my head. I’ve been looking at different task management systems like Asana, Trello and Monday. I can’t get on with any of them. I get pissed off and stopped using them because I can’t get over the hump of understanding it well enough to save me time. Yet, I don’t want to sit in the uncomfortable nurse or spend enough time and effort. I don’t have the patience to spend enough time and effort to get to the point where I get over that hump.
If we use that as a bit of an example, you start with something. There’s a clear goal that you have. You start with something and then there’s some degree of a learning curve. At some point, you have this experience of being stuck and that drives up some frustration. I’m curious if there are any stories that drive about you, who you are, what you’re not or anything along those lines.
Quite possibly. It’s like, “I’m not smart enough to get this. Why can I not get this other person to get this? Why can I not be patient enough that other people can get this?” Also, probably some unfair judgments, like, “People less smart than me are doing this. Why the fuck can’t I do this?”
What’s the answer to that rhetorical question? If dummies can do this and I can’t, what does that mean?
One of two things, either I’m not as smart as I think I am or they’re a lot more patient than I am. They’re willing to do the work or put the time in or whatever metric you want to look at to get the task done.
What are you noticing in looking at this?
I want to think my way out of it. Thinking my way out of it is I can be kinder about my limitations.
It would be the solution to what is showing up. I love that you brought that into the space. Let’s imagine drawing a dashed box around it and setting it over here, like, “Brain, you’re trying to save me from something but I’m going to set you over here.” I assert that as a response to some experience you’re having as we look at this. What is the experience you’re having as you look at this?
It’s fear of not being good enough and able to get the stuff I want to be done. Some anger as well around like, “I’m carrying all this fucking stuff in my head.” I’m a scientist. I studied the science of sport. I studied the science of human behavior. I know there’s plenty of studies that show we have many decisions in a day before the quality of our decisions goes down. There’s so much information we can hold in one go. Here I am walking around and trying to fucking remember everything because I can’t put it into a task system.
There’s this anger and frustration about why the fuck can’t either get this done or, which is the thing that we’re coming to, is why the fuck can I trust somebody else to help me? I put my hand up and say, “This isn’t working for me. I’m dyslexic. My brain doesn’t always work well in these things. Let’s find somebody that can work and I can own.” I don’t like exploring stuff like this. It’s not a good use of my time. It’s better for me to have somebody else who knows how to do it to explain it to me. I don’t learn well by reading and playing. I learn well by watching somebody else do it and then talking to them about it. I have to have an auditory component to it. I have to ask questions and talk about them. If I do that, I’ll understand it and it’ll go in.
Are you saying that we’re in your head or your heart now?
I wanted to sanity check myself. That was how it occurred to me. What’s your head trying to achieve at this moment?
Fix the problem.
From that, this stuff that’s showing up is indicative of something being wrong, fundamentally, “This shouldn’t be. I shouldn’t have to struggle. I shouldn’t have to be with this.” There’s a problem with all of us, at least in our minds, “I’m not attractive enough. I’m stupid. I’m not cool enough. People don’t connect with me at all,” whatever it is. It’s like, “Now we go back to the well-worn territory of our survival mechanism’s favorite problem for us.” We’re sitting with what’s here. As we sit with what’s here, what do you notice at this moment?
I’m looking for you to save me. Adam, onto the question for me.
What would save you?
Taking me out of the uncomfortableness. I feel uncomfortable that I can’t fix the problem. I’m uncomfortable that you can’t ask the question I need you to ask for me to get it. I’m uncomfortable that I want to think my way out of it all the time. It’s difficult for me to drop into the feeling and feel what is going on. This is a little at the side. This isn’t about this right now. When I work with others, I can feel it now. It’s fucking powerful to be in a men’s group or one-to-one coaching with somebody and feel what’s going on for them. I couldn’t do that before. That’s a new thing for me. It’s blowing me away and I still struggle with it for myself. I can see that in others and I am experienced in empathy in a way I’ve never experienced empathy before. I fucking love this work because of that empathy for myself.
A lot of stuff is on the table. It’s a juicy conversation. I honor you, Lee, for being in it with me. I also honor the frustration, the desire, the impatience, the discomfort or whatever the label of that is. I noticed you went up into your head a little bit there. Are you more or less present to your discomfort at the moment as you do that?
I don’t think so.
That’s a weird answer. Are you more or less? You have two choices on this multiple-choice test. You can’t draw another bubble and fill that in. We can test this as we go forward. As you go up into your head, do you find you get more or less present to your discomfort?
It depends on how I’m going into my head. Am I trying to explore it and share? Am I trying to fix it?
On a scale of 1 to 10, ten being, “Holy fuck, I’m feeling every single piece of this discomfort that’s there for me to feel in this moment.” One being, “Maybe it’s there but I’m not present to it.” I noticed you went in your again. What level of feeling your discomfort at that moment did you experience?
On a scale of 1 to 10?
It’s 3 or 4.
What about at this moment?
It’s the same.
Thanks for testing that. My invitation, while I do this, is to notice as you rise into your head and then practice coming down a bit. For everyone reading, at this point, noticing what do you want to do to Lee? What is your bias? It’s like, “I need to give him this. Why don’t we do that? If only this.” That’s our inability to let someone be with something. The reason we have an inability to let someone be with something is that we have an inability to be with it. I don’t like not knowing the answer. I noticed that there’s a part of me that wants to give Lee the answer because then I would have value, look smart and Lee wouldn’t feel uncomfortable.
I want to invite all of you to get present to the man in front of us and who this man is, what he’s created in his life and get clear. It’s like, “This is not a person that needs us to rescue him. This is not a person that is a dummy by any stretch of the imagination even though that’s the story that starts to show up.” It is how we lead and coach people as we start to notice, “The stuff I’m trying to fix, resolve, remediate or whatever is my stuff showing up. It’s my difficulty in letting someone be with this.” What did you get in that, Lee?
It made me want to share something.
I find it difficult to ask for help even though I enjoy it when I find people I can ask for help. When I share vulnerability, people don’t see it. I run men’s groups. I also created a men’s group for me and some friends at the beginning of the pandemic. I could see some people struggling. I wanted more connection and I created a group for us. After a while, I was leading that group. I’m like, “I don’t want to lead the group anymore. This needs to be my work or I’ll turn you into another paid group. You guys can pay me and it’s another facilitated group. Make your decision. My preference would be that this is my group to do my work and I get my support.” The guys went, “We hear you, Lee.” Next week, we turned up and nobody was prepared to lead except me. For another couple of weeks, I led. I’m like, “I’m not fucking doing this group anymore if you guys don’t step up, start leading and learning how to help me and help each other. I’m no longer going to lead it.” I had to be forceful for people to see what I was going through. I had a similar experience. I crashed and broke my shoulder badly several years ago.
What’s important about what you’re telling us?
I want you to know how difficult it has been for others to see my vulnerability and I need help. That’s the story I want to tell you.
What does that have to do with where you find yourself in this conversation?
There’s something coming up around my vulnerability and why other people can’t see it. What I feel is because I can’t see it maybe or because I’m not sharing it fully. That’s what it is. You’re talking about I’m going up into my head. People can’t feel what I’m feeling for whatever reason. I talk about something and because I’m being articulate, measured and considered, I’m explaining it and their response is, “Lee is going to be okay. He’s going to be fine. He always survives. I don’t need to go to the hospital with Lee.” Even though I was like, “I’m fucking shitting myself going to the hospital. I’ve never had an operation. I might die when they knock me out. I don’t know. I don’t want to die.” That’s what I was feeling inside and nobody saw it. There’s this disconnect between the way I am presenting myself and what is going on for me. People don’t see my sadness and my vulnerability even though I will quite clearly explain it to them.
Can I offer you a reflection? What you shared was, as you go into your head, you’re at about a 3 or 4 in terms of your connection. Where we got onto this is there’s a feeling of being stuck is uncomfortable for you but then when you get into your head, it’s about a 3 or 4 in terms of how much you’re present to it and how much you’re feeling that in you. My reflection would be they’re not feeling it because you’re not, Lee.
How I’ve survived is maybe there’s this fear of everything’s going to be overwhelming and I won’t be able to cope with it so I’m not fucking going there.
There’s probably a good reason for this. What do you think it is for us to do with it in this conversation?
I don’t know. Help me.
I love that you owned you didn’t know.
I have a desire to try psychedelics and have a big shift in that connection between my emotional center and brain’s thinking center. For me, part of being a sportsman has been disconnecting on some level so that I can turn on that animal instinct to go and race. I want to get off the track and turn it off. It’s the same with coaching. You don’t want your athletes to see how emotionally charged you feel because that adds to their emotions. Years of competing, I’ve become good at being able to go, “I need to be an animal right now,” and then turn that off. I don’t know if that’s a byproduct of who I am and that’s helped me be good at it or I’ve trained myself to do it and I don’t think it matters. I want to be able to feel more deeply.
If that was the practice at this moment rather than out there, in 10 minutes, 1 minute or whatever, what would there be for you to feel?
There’s a well of sadness. I can probably be a typical man and hide my sadness with anger. I would call it frustration when it’s anger. There’s this well of sadness that I carry around with me.
I noticed was you said there’s this well of sadness and I felt you touch it. I felt you start to talk about it a little abstractly. It was almost like you pulled away a bit of it. You talked about it like this thing you carry around with you rather than a thing you were feeling in the moment.
Sadness scares me, Adam.
Me, too. As a man with a large heart and a lot of heartbreak, I am often present to heartbreak because that’s the cost of entry. It’s easier for me to feel that as anger and then, frankly, low-grade frustration throughout my life, “Fuck them. Fuck coaches. Fuck stupid leaders and all that stuff.”
For me, that creates these impossible standards as well. Everybody has to live up to an impossible standard because it’s like, “Fuck everyone if they’re not doing it as well as they could be.”
To what extent are you present to the sadness that’s there in this moment?
I’m present to it.
Give us a scale, 1 to 10.
It’s 5 or 6.
What level of practice would you like?
What do you mean?
You started on it by talking about psychedelics but what I got from you is you want to be able to sit deeply in this with your clients and with yourself. You’re feeling into it about a 5 or 6. Where do you want to practice if this moment was an opportunity to practice?
I don’t know what I could touch and be okay for one. Maybe this is self-protection. I am experiencing that a lot in one-to-one work with others and in groups. I’m like, “I feel that.” I’m noticing myself feeling that quite deeply. On Tuesday night’s men’s group, I’m at a fucking 8 or 9 of feeling somebody else’s sadness and not my own. I feel it in my body. I am feeling sadness but I’m feeling the other person’s. The only time I’ve allowed myself to feel sadness is during romantic breakups. That’s the only time I’ve ever deeply touched my sadness. In the past, I’d look at others feeling sad and I would mistrust them. I’d be like, “You’re doing that to get attention. Stop feeling fucking sad.”
Have you ever been devastated by love? Are you familiar with empaths? Have you ever heard that term or heard people call themselves empaths?
My wife is.
Are you familiar with other people like empaths out in the wild and it’s not just your wife?
Yes. I’ve witnessed people feeling somebody else’s pain as deeply as that person is feeling it themselves.
My wife would fall into this category, too. People like me and I suspect people like you are good at operating over top of our feelings and shutting them down, which leads to a lot of false negatives, “I’m not feeling anything. Holy shit, there’s a well of stuff that I’m feeling but I’m not present to any of it.” Whereas an empath tends to the other end of the spectrum. Their antenna is highly tuned that it’s got a lot of false positives, “This person over here is sad.” “I’m not.”
Sometimes they’re feeling something that’s there that I’m not present to. Other times, it’s like, “I’m not. I don’t know what to do to convince you.” You’re probably familiar with this dynamic. One of the things about empathetic people is that it can be safer to feel something over on that side than to let ourselves feel it here. I’m getting that in what you’re describing where you can feel this with your men but then with yourself, there’s a bit of a wall.
Women, too. I thought I was only going to want to coach men. I found that I relate to women, too, which was interesting to find. This is what it feels like, I’m playing in a kiddie pool. The first part of playing in the kiddie pool is I’m going to experience somebody else’s feelings and let them settle on me a bit and go, “I can feel that.” I’m going to watch your film and the film is going to make me cry. I shared something with my men’s group that I’m going through that’s a difficult choice for me. After the group, I’m like, “I want a fucking good cry. Let’s do this. Come on, emotion, let’s do this.” I went and laid on my bed. I took some deep breaths and I’m going to say, “Let this come out.” Maybe one tear came out, I laid there for five minutes and I’m like, “Let’s get up now.”
It’s like your experience with Asana, Trello or all of these things. You gave it a go, “Fuck it. Let’s go do something else.” I have some assertions for you, which are a bit risky for someone as smart as you because it’s easy to be like, “Do I agree with that and set it aside?” I would invite you to receive these not from them being right but something to try on like a belief to like, “Maybe I’ll sit in that belief for a week. What if that was the case?”
I fucking love the way that you said that. Thank you.
You’re welcome. A whole lot of practice with this man with his head. The first one would be I assert that we can only feel to the extent that we can feel ourselves. My hunch doesn’t have to be right. It would be that you’re feeling your men intellectually or you’re trying to get down into your heart through some exercise like that. Because there’s a bit of a protecting yourself from that stuckness, anger, frustration, “Fuck, whatever it is,” and hanging out there, you can only feel other people to a certain extent.
It may occur, “I’m feeling them so deeply,” but that’s going to be different than them feeling you with them. We tend to create from this place is people feeling like we’re there for them rather than we’re there with them. That’s the first place I would invite you to. It’s like a context for your practice from here, “What if people are only able to feel me with them to the extent that I’m able to feel this within myself? What might I take on from that place? What might I do with this?”
The second thing that I’m present to is you’re brilliant, Lee. Brilliance is good at solving things because then that allows us to move to the next thing. At least over here, it occurs like all of the work-solving stuff is what keeps you in the pattern of being stuck and then being unstuck. Instead of the notion of being stuck as a problem, I would invite you to try on, like, “What if there was nothing at all wrong with being stuck? What if I showed up from that place?” What might that allow in you? What might that look like if you were to practice that way?
My therapist would say this to me. He’d be like, “Why can’t you sit in your uncomfortableness and just sit there?” He had been inviting me to do that for years.
To be clear, I’m inviting you to something different than that. You could sit in the uncomfortableness and be like, “Fuck, I’m sitting in the uncomfortableness and it’s wrong but I’m sitting here.” I’m getting there’s no shift in your relationship to a particular experience that you’re having. You could white knuckle through that for years and meditate on it and it’s still like, “Fuck, I did it but it sucked.” I’m inviting you to shift the way you’re relating to it. I’m asking you what you might practice from that? Instead of stuck bad and unstuck good or momentum forward good and stationary bad, I’m curious what might show up differently in your life or what you might practice from a place where stuck was the work. It’s not even stuck. It’s like, “Here’s where I am. This is the work.”
Is there a personal example of something you could give me to help me understand what you’re saying?
I’m going to let you do the work. I’m not going to unstuck you. First of all, let’s take a step back. Did you get that the notion of it being stuck versus unstuck is something made up?
I don’t think I do.
For some people, they could be in the same space where you are. They’re trying to learn Asana. They’re finding it challenging. They’re not using it that much. Their relationship to that might be like, “That’s the process. I got to do this for a little while longer.” Whereas for you, it’s like, “I’m stuck.” Along with that is like, “That means I’m dumb. These other dummies are smarter than me. Therefore, I’m dumb.” It’s the accompanying emotions. Stuck and unstuck is a made-up context. It’s not real. We couldn’t find proof in the universe that stuck looks like this and unstuck looks like that. That’s something you’ve created.
As you’re talking about it, I don’t even get stuck. What happens is I get to that point and then I’ve been there. I don’t even stay at that point for long enough to even experience the stuckness. I’m like, “Fuck that.”
The only danger there is that then your brain is like, “Great. What we’ll do is we’ll stay in it and being stuck.” Now you’re still in the box that’s labeled stuck versus unstuck, stuck good and unstuck bad. It means you can feel good when you’re unstuck but when you’re stuck, it’s bad. It’s like, “That’s amazing,” until you’re stuck. Because these two things are in the same box, it’s inevitable. You have them at good and bad. I’m inviting you to draw a box around that whole notion of stuck versus unstuck. What’s a different way, a completely different belief that’s unrelated to those two about that place you find yourself with Asana?
What might that look like?
Curious as to why I feel the need to judge myself at that moment. Curious as to why I need to compare myself to others at that moment. Curious as to why I need this to be sorted within a certain timescale as opposed to it’ll take as long as it takes.
Imagine all of that stuff you mentioned. You’re doing great work, Lee. I want you to know that. Imagine we’ve got stuck and unstuck and then there’s all of that, like, “I need to be better. Stupid people, dummies, I hate all those people.” We’re putting a box in that. What I noticed is that the questions you asked yourself from curiosity go back inside that box. What could you be curious about that has nothing? It doesn’t even touch any of this stuff we’re setting aside for now.
What I’m feeling at the moment.
Beautiful. I love that.
What am I feeling right now?
What do you think might happen for your client if they were to play this way?
It’s the homework I give them. Week two of the men’s group is all our feelings and the homework is to download the Mind Your Graph, stop yourself, take some breaths and go, “What am I feeling right now?”
I’m not trying to be dismissive. Everything you shared is in the realm of what you already know, which is much less interesting to me. There’s that client we started talking about where they were stuck and you’re like, “I got to get them out. I need to give them this answer.” That would alleviate and move you into unstuck. What if you or your client were able to bring that curiosity into that space and into that moment? What do you think might become available or grow out of that?
It would help me with my patients around discomfort. It would take away the feeling that I’m probably imparting on them of like, “You could’ve fucking get this.” I’m sure they can sense my, “Shut the fuck up. Why are you so dumb?” It’s me being truly empathetic with them rather than, “I’m here to help you. I’m here with you and we’re going to experience this together. We’re going to walk the walk as long as the walk takes.” A word I want to use is space. It creates this space for them to truly explore what’s going on rather than be the good student and fix the teacher’s need to get it right or to get this thing answered.
What would it be like for you to have more space in your life?
It’s fucking less stressful. I don’t have to fix everyone’s problems.
The last place I’m going to invite you to look is what do you think might be part of the impact if you were to walk around in your life with more space for yourself?
I’d have closer relationships. People would conversely be more likely to share stuff with me and ask me for support than less likely. I’m not going to get into my head. I’m going to stay on my feelings and create those bonds that I want to create with people. I crave intimacy. I hate small talk. I’m like, “Let’s fucking talk and do some work.” Those are the relationships I want. If I’m not getting them as much as I would like, I must be part of that. What part am I going to own on that? I own a part that I have, an agenda. I have an agenda of fixing shit.
I love what you saw for yourself there. What will you take on in terms of your practices?
We’re coming back to fucking Matt Thieleman and be curious. I can best describe it as I’m going to take on the space needed for things to take the time they need to take.
Is there any structure that would support you in that?
My wife could probably give me some good feedback on stepping out of that as could the guys in my men’s group.
Is that something you’ll ask them to do for you? Is that like, “Sorry, we’ll see this,” and practice that with you?
She wants it to give me shit. I’ll ask. It’s beneficial to us. It’s good for me to ask for support.
Is saying it out loud making that declaration here sufficient to have it stay live for you? Is there any other structure that would keep that present for you?
Saying it’s enough, I’m open to suggestions if you’ve got something you think would be useful.
No. I’m not going to step in that with you. I’m going to trust you and your work. I don’t mean that condescendingly or patronizingly but more like, “I would love to give you 50,000 different practices. I’m clear over here. The man in front of me is brilliant and smart. Who am I to suggest anything to him? This guy’s got it.” You might not get it immediately. Maybe you’ll practice and you’d be like, “I forgot about that.” Maybe next time, you’ll come up with something more. I want to honor you for your brilliance and allow that to be there.
I feel like I need a little mantra, something like, “It’s not my place to fix you or whatever. I don’t even know if I need to go that far. It’s not my place.”
There’s a period where on my computer screen there are big Stickies on Mac. I had big letters that said, “Why are you still talking?” I would practice something and it’s like, “Adam, enough.”
I can’t relate to that at all, Adam. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
“It’s not my place,” what a great mantra. That feels like the place for us to wind down.
I like to work with what I want to do rather than what I don’t want to do. I might need to change that into a positive. They have all the answers.
Would that apply to you as well?
Yes. Thank you for reflecting on that.
Anything for you to have this conversation feel complete? I’m going to acknowledge you to finish up. I want to check in before we go there.
I want to give you a hug. That’s the problem with Zoom.
It’s not the same, is it?
I miss my men’s group. Every group would start and finish with a hug. It’s important for men to hug each other. I want to say thank you. I enjoyed that. Thank you for your time.
You’re welcome. I enjoyed it, too.
Thank you for talking with me.
You’re welcome. May I finish by acknowledging you then?
Have you been acknowledged before? Are you familiar with this practice?
I have. I asked for it on one of the Dojos because it’s usually uncomfortable for me. I have struggled to celebrate myself and my victories.
In the form you filled out, you mentioned that it’s hard to receive gifts.
I’m fucking terrible at receiving gifts.
That’ll probably show up here because acknowledgment is the gift of love. I invite you to receive everything I’m saying as truth. Your brain will probably be like, “He’s saying that but it’s this.” You can allow that guy to show up and be like, “I’m going to set him aside and receive this.” Lee, there are a few things I would love to acknowledge you for. I’m going to get the obvious one out of the way first, which is your brilliance. When I say it’s obvious, I mean it’s clear the brilliance you bring into the space but that makes it no less special.
There’s an ability to move through all of the layers. You could be on the ground in the tactical or up in the air in the strategic, which is a profound thing to bring as a coach in any area and elite levels of performance. Brilliance is such a beautiful thing because you can meet people wherever they are. It’s like, “This person is about moving their pedals and getting their cadence right. Up here, it’s strategically planning where bursts or whatever they’re called are going to happen.” That’s such a microcosm for how your brilliance operates but it’s beautiful and fun to get to be in the space with you there.
The second thing I want to acknowledge you for is the intimacy that you are as a man and as a being on this planet. People who bring a great deal of intimacy in the space learn to protect growing up because intimacy is vulnerable. We get prodded and poked and we feel like a naked lobster. We got to build that shell. To the extent that the part of you that’s judgmental might be like, “You’re not seeing enough. You don’t feel people are enough. You’re not X, Y or Zed enough.” I want to reflect that is a much a function of the intimacy you are as any other part of it. I honor all of it.
I honor you for that young man that learned to create this so that he could survive. I honor you for your warrior’s journey to slowly bring that off and to let that down and to let yourself be in it. Finally, I honor you for the champion that I get you are. I’ll bring Lee Povey into any space. He’s going to be a champion for the people in that space, what’s possible, and their tenderness, vulnerability, heart, fullest expression and a champion for spirit speaking through all of us and us acting as a spirit. It’s beautiful to get to share this space with you. Thanks for letting it in.
Thank you. I appreciate all of that.
Anything that showed up for you that is there to be spoken? You’re like, “We went this way. I thought we were going to go that way. We zigged instead of zagging.”
It was interesting for me to experience you lovingly hold me accountable. That was good modeling for me that I can take on when we see it and when the clients go in through something, and see them avoid it. When I’m going like, “Let me tell you this lovely, delightful story about some shit that happened to me.” I would go, “Anyway, the question I asked you was.” I liked the way that you did that. I thought that was kindly done. It brought my defenses down because of how kind you were being around it. You can see what’s going on. You may or may not be getting frustrated, like, “Come on, Lee. I’ve asked you a question. Answer the fucking question.” You’ve been able to stay president and kind with, “I’ll let you go there for a second. Let’s bring you back here. I’d like you to answer that, please because this is where it’s at.”
Thanks for bringing that into the space.
I enjoyed that.
There are two things I’ll share about that. The first is I remember someone once telling me, it was a coach that had reached out to have a conversation. I said something sarcastic in the email for fun and he’s like, “Do you know what I like about you, Adam? You’re a dick.” I was like, “You’re reading. What else are you going to say?” He’s like, “There’s this pokey and playful part of yourself. You’re a bit of a dick.” If you can do that from an open heart, you can open people up. A lot of my training early on was first to open my heart because it was all hard pokes. There were jabs in the ribs. It’s like, “Come on, fucker.” Sarcasm but with a lot of edges.
First, a lot of the work was opening my heart back up to the point where then I was on the other side and everything was initially like, “I love you.” Me doing a lot of affirmations so that people understood I love them and then poking them in the ribs and that then became my work. It’s like, “Adam, you’ve done a lot of work to open your heart. Now your job is to trust that your heart is open and then offer them the thing.” What I’m present in all of this is that good transformational work is equal parts love and rigor. We can only bring as much rigor as we can bring love. All rigor and no love is brutality. All love and no rigor are toothless. It’s the blending of those two energies.
I’m going to be following a similar journey. One of the first Dojos we were given feedback on a coach and Toku is like, “I want to hear your love right now, Lee.” I’m like, “You could have done this. you could’ve done that.”
My dad is a Brummie. He’s from England. For those of you who don’t know that word, that means he’s from Birmingham. My dad has an incredible ability to see people’s possibilities. The hard part about seeing what’s possible for someone is it leads to a lot of heartbreak because here’s where the human is and here’s what’s possible. That’s a gap. Our heartbreak exists in the gap between our expectations and reality.
From that heartbreak, what do we do? We close. We resigned ourselves, “Fuck it. They’re never going to get there anyhow. I’ll stop getting my hopes up and my hearts up.” We become attached. As his heart started to close a bit, I started to feel him pointing to my possibility. It started to become how I was not living up to my potential rather than like, “You’re amazing. Here’s what’s available.” I’m always working with that balance because I can quickly go down that path. This is not about making Gavin Quiney wrong. I’m with him to keep finding my way back to an open heart.
I like the way of looking at that as a heartbreak. I have not considered that before. That disappointment is what I would call it where an athlete or a person is like, “I can see what you could be. Why are you holding yourself back?” I didn’t consider that as heartbreak. That’s an interesting way to look at it rather than consider it as a disappointment. You’re letting me down in a way or you’re letting yourself down and by proxy, you’re letting me down because I’m trying to help you do it. It’s interesting to think of me getting a little bit of heartbreak every time I’ve experienced that.
One of the most profound things I think about this profession, this work of coaching is it’s a practice of so much love. We open our hearts wide and that leads to a lot of heartbreak. When people are like, “I can call myself a coach and don’t take on their work,” which is their choice. The heartbreak crushes them. The alternative is they stay closed-hearted and then do whatever work that allows but it’s never going to be as profound as when you can let someone all the way in.
That was nearly my topic for this. These coaches post like, “I’m going to make you a six-figure coach. Do my one-week program and everything would be fixed.” I didn’t even realize that existed until I started in this and then I’m like, “Fuck, I do not want to be that. I don’t want to be anywhere near that.”
I heard someone describe as a lot of people are in the business of selling money, which is what a lot of that stuff is, “I’ll give you six figures. I’m selling you the money.” We got to meet people where they are. Sometimes, that’s where people are. At least for me, quickly, I want us to get to like, “Great. What’s that going to create? What do you want in your life?” I want to bring some of the people that have been sharing generously into the space. Thanks, everyone, for your comments and being with us through this.
Toku is tracking that when you’re with someone who feels stuck, you feel frustrated, impatient and anxious. I was also saying you were feeling stuck in this conversation. He was noticing Toku’s tendency to feel frustrated, impatient and anxious, which is true. We feel it, “If only I could save you out of this.” There’s a lot of love for how you’re showing up. Alexandra shared her version, “Not my circus and not my monkeys.” I don’t have to manage all this stuff I can choose out of that. Alexandra, I love this piece you shared, “I want to learn more of that general accountability with myself. I tend to go to extremes when I coach super loving support or challenge the client with the wrath of Zeus.” It’s Certainly something you and I can both relate to, Lee.
I don’t find the challenge a bit difficult. When I first talked about getting into this, I’m like, “I’ll want to fucking challenge people. I love challenges.” It was Carrie who was like, “Is that a reason to do this?” Either Carry or Matt was like, “Maybe a little bit less of that.”
To finish up, Alexandra shared, “Such a beautiful session. I feel grateful to be able to have seen this. My takeaway is I want to pay more attention to how men relate to their feelings and take into account that there might be more pain under the surface than is expressed or more emotion in general and not just pain.” I love that you broadened it that way, Alexandra. There’s plenty of pain but also emotion in general. Part of masculine energy is the ability to transcend. What’s happening at the moment and then the ability to transcend like, “I am on purpose. I’m going to create this. I’m going to build a building. I’m going to do whatever.” We all have that energy. That masculine exists in all of us as the feminine does.
It’s in our transection that we can also lose sight of the moment. There’s such a beautiful opportunity to plug back into that and like, “What is not being felt in this moment?” Lee, thank you. Thanks for how you showed up. I honor that. You’ve given everyone a real gift. I appreciate that. I honor you for being a coach in his work. You’re doing lots of stuff. You’re in conversations like this one. You’re doing the Dojo. You’re in a mastermind with Toku. A lot of stuff. Thanks for being someone committed to elevating his mastery. If people want to learn more about you, find out what you’re up to, follow you or anything like that, where do they do that?
On Instagram, @MaximizeYourPotentialCoaching. It’s the same on Facebook, @MaximizeYourPotentialCoaching. @LeePovey on Instagram if you want to follow pictures of my wife. My website is MYPCoaching.org.
The Creating Clients Course, we’re in week eight. I will briefly share that the whole process of this course. The whole underlying foundation is based on the fact that in the coaching profession, there’s a division. The division is there’s the thing I have to do sell to clients. There’s the thing I love doing. I’ve got to figure out how to do this so I can then do as much of this thing I love doing as possible.
What’s fascinating is that even the International Coach Federation, the body that accredits coaches, buys into this false dichotomy. When I go and speak to their programs, they’re like, “We’re not going to give out credit for this because you’re speaking about sales and that’s different from coaching.” The truth is that they are the same thing. It’s buying into this belief that creates these as separate. If you can break down or dissolve that belief and start to see how these things are the same, all there is to do is to show up fully expressed in your life, be with people, get curious with people and create relationships. That’s all that coaching is.
As you deepen your mastery into that, one, you discover that you don’t hate this thing over here or you don’t begrudgingly willingly do it. Instead, you get to be deepening your mastery of yourself and showing up in the world that way. That’s an awesome course. That’s ten weeks. You get to spend a bunch of time with me and some other amazing people. They’re up to cool stuff. It’s $1,000. That’s quite a low commitment. If you want to learn more about it, go to AdamQuiney.com/clientcreation. We’d love to play with you. Thanks for reading. We’ll see you next episode. Lee, thank you for being here.
- Lee Povey
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About Lee Povey
Empowering leaders, executives, and elite coaches to truly fulfill their potential is his purpose.
As a lifelong coach and entrepreneur, he discovered he has a gift for helping others grow, overcome their fears and limiting behaviors, and step into the most powerful version of themselves. He’s been on this journey himself. Often the smartest guy in the room (or at least he thought he is so), he was easily bored and constantly seeking new challenges without embracing the success and joy he already had in his life.
He personally experienced the changes that powerful coaching can bring to your life, work and relationships. Those changes are what motivate him to get up each morning and bring the best version of himself into work with high performers each and every day.
He created a thriving real estate company that was provided him great financial reward, yet he wasn’t happy, and so sold it.
He has Coached 100’s of World, National and Olympic champions, yet he knew something was missing. While incredibly rewarding, the field was too niche for his life purpose.
he could feel deep down that he has a different purpose, which is to be of service for other high performers, providing them support in their growth, and help them be more effective leaders, communicators and role models.
He works best with those who are driven and desire to succeed in their chosen fields. Often outwardly you already look like success, yet inside you can feel an emptiness, that something isn’t quite right, things are missing and not as fulfilling as you thought they would be.
He is here to challenge you, to support you, to mentor and coach you. All with the goal of enabling you to experience the success you desire in all areas of your life.